Dagobert's Revenge

Boyd Rice, Lord and Conqueror

Interview by Tracy Twyman

Boyd, Albin Julius in Germany DR: Were you an ambitious kid? Did you have aspirations, things you wanted to accomplish? Boyd: My aspirations were almost kind of negative aspirations. I remember walking to Elementary School one day, and seeing in this guyís window. I saw this man ironing his shirt on an ironing board, and making his lunch and putting it into a paper bag, and getting ready to go off to work. And I just looked at that, and it horrified me, and I though, What an empty, meaningless existence. Is this what I have to look forward to? To grow up and have to pay bills and have to go to a boring job where you do the same thing every day? You might as well be dead! And that really creeped me out, as a third-grader, or whatever. So my main aspiration when I was a kid was to figure out how I could attain my desires and live my life exactly the way I wanted to without becoming involved in that other world. To see if you could reach that point where you were grown-up and you could still maintain this purity. Some kind of Peter Pan syndrome.

DR: What lead to your dropping out of school?

Boyd: Iíd made a habit out of antagonizing people and it eventually just reached a point where it seemed unhealthy. I mean, I literally was getting beat up by football players, I was getting the tires on my car slashed, people were threatening to kill me, and I just kind of thought, Iím not really learning anything here. Itís just sort of an arena to play games with people. And thatís what it was for me. Iíd go to school every day thinking What can I do to make people do something funny that will entertain me? And the moment I dropped out of school, I feel like thatís when I started really learning. Thatís when I started studying and researching things that truly interested me. Learning became pleasure and joy instead of something tedious.

DR: So you would recommend it to other people?

Boyd: Absolutely. Get out as soon as you legally can.

DR: What was your first experience with drugs, and did it affect you a lot?

Boyd: L.S.D. was fun, but it didnít have any profound impact on me. Although I had a few remarkable experiences that involved telepathy while on it a few times. Me and a person I took it with saw the same visions at the same time, which has to be akin to telepathy. One time I had taken some acid with Christiane F. and we were walking late at night along a street paved with square bricks, & as I looked down at the bricks I saw that each one had a large inverted swastika embossed on it. So I told Christiane to look down, and instantly she said, "Oh my God! A street paved with swastikas!" She saw exactly what I saw with no verbal clues from me. Iíve had incidents even wilder and more unbelievable sounding than that. But thatís kind of emblematic of my drug use at its best: other people take L.S.D. and see the face of God - I see swastikas.

DR: When did your interest in the occult start?

Boyd: At the age of 13, itís hard for people to believe this now, but in the late sixties there was kind of this weird occult renaissance going on. There was this magazine called Man, Myth and Magic,. When this magazine came out, there were literally ads on television where they said, "Finally thereís a magazine dedicated to black magic, voodoo, necromancy, the tarot.." The first issue had an Austin Osmond Spare painting on the cover, it was a painting of a goat, and in Lemon Grove, CA, where I grew up there was a billboard for Man, Myth and Magic with this big Spare painting. And at the same time there was a TV show on called "Dark Shadows", and that was my favorite show on Earth. So I went down to the local library and got every book I could find about black magic and alchemy. I had a deck of tarot cards. I had a crystal ball. When the Satanic Bible came out, I got it.

Boyd & Albin Julius at Díannuzioís Vittoriale DR: Youíre still on the Council of Nine (Church of Satan), right?

Boyd: Thatís correct.

DR: Well, not being a Satanist myself, I donít really understand the concept. I donít understand what the Churchís purpose is, so maybe you can tell me. I mean what are they doing exactly?

Boyd: Well, what Iíd like to say is that I think that weíve been hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years into a very one-sided philosophy. Weíve been denied all the dark aspects of Man, his psyche, his soul. I think that in this day and age the path to God is Satan. I think that before a person can understand the nature of God, they have to get a counterbalance. They have to go back and delve into the dark side before they can unite the dark side with the light side. Because contrary to what people may think, Iím not a devil-worshipper. Iím not into the devil. Iím into God. Itís just that my understanding of God differs totally from that of orthodox religion.

DR: So you donít think that Satan is the Devil?

Boyd: No. I think that Satan is just an archetype.

DR: What is your view of God then?

Boyd: I think Christ is a feminine archetype and Satan is a masculine archetype, and that God is a union of the two. I think that God represents the creative/destructive force that created the universe, and governs all the laws of the universe. I think that Man hasnít understood it for a long time, and his misunderstanding of it is responsible for his divided nature. I think this false duality of light vs. dark, God vs. the Devil has kind of created an Abyss in Manís consciousness. Especially since all of the religions of the world basically posit that all is One. And they all have these symbols representing that, and yet none of them really believe it, because they all say that you should go to the Light, or that you should transcend matter and go to the spirit. If all is One, then nothing exists outside the One. Therefore how can the Devil be opposed to what is One? It doesnít make sense. ĎCause I mean, if you look at alchemy, if you look at the Star of David, thatís what that represents, the qaballah, thatís what that was all about, the balance between the pillars of creation and destruction. The Yin and Yang. All of these things represent this concept. People still use the symbols, and they just donít follow through with what the concept actually means.

DR: You said that God is this force in the universe. Is it like a blind force, or do you think itís an intelligence that you can contact?

Boyd: In a sense itís a blind force, and yet operates according to what seems to be an intelligence. Itís the same intelligence evident in the balance between a proton and neutron, or a positive and negative current in electricity. Itís that same process in its most absolute, all-encompassing terms. You might well call it a blind intelligence. It would appear to be very, very purposeful in its operation; yet I think it would be a mistake to imagine it in human terms, as though it may be possessed of a conventional consciousness that we could somehow contact. Imagine for a moment that the ocean possessed a consciousness. It would be a waste of time to communicate to a single water molecule. The simile is the same regards God and man. The most we can hope to do is understand this force, to recognize how and why it operates, and what our role is in relation to it.

DR: Can you use it?

Boyd: Yeah. Absolutely. You can align yourself with it. I think thatís how people become connected to the Divine. Thatís what constitutes power. There are patterns within the world, and there are patterns within you, and when you align those inner patterns with the outer patterns then everythingís easy. I think when you decide to contradict those patterns, thatís when everything seems to go awry. Thatís why nothing goes right in most peopleís lives.

DR: So you think that aligning yourself with this force is how you accomplish things. Is that how magick works, then?

Boyd: Yeah. I think thatís one aspect of it.

DR: Whatís the most spectacular result youíve ever gotten from a magick ritual?

Boyd: I put a curse on a race in San Francisco that happened every year. I hated this race, and I was held up in traffic because of this race, and I just said, "I wish something ugly and horrible would happen to just destroy everybodyís fun and just cast a shadow over this whole race. And I go to sleep, and I wake up, and the second I woke up I turned on the TV and the first thing I heard was, "Thereís been a horrible tragedy today which casts an ugly shadow over the entire race." And itís like a couple of people had just dropped dead while they were running this race.

DR: For no reason?

Boyd: Well one guy had been up all night doing cocaine. The second guy was in perfect health, and his death was inexplicable.

DR: But you think it was you?

Boyd: Iím absolutely convinced. I have never put a curse on someone and had anything less than stunning success. I started at the age of 13, putting witches ladders on the chair of a teacher I hated. He fell ill, and we had substitutes for most of the rest of the year. The following year he never returned. I have no doubts as to the power of magick, because Iíve seen its results far too often for it to be mere coincidence. Douglas P. wrote a song as a curse against a neighbor of his, called "The only good neighbor (is a dead neighbor.) It came out on a compilation, and within a few months, the woman was gone. Iíve seen it time and again. LaVey did a destruction ritual on August 8th, 1969, and that same night the Manson murders happened in Hollywood. You read the text of the ritual and it absolutely sounds like heís describing the lifestyle of the victims. I did the same ritual 20 years later, at a concert called 8-8-88, and there was a race riot outside the venue where it occurred. Coincidence? Magick is very real, and even people with very little power or occult knowledge can do things like cloudbusting or staring at the back of a personís head on the bus until they turn to look. You can easily prove it to yourself just how real it is by simple experiments like these. The problem with magick is that you have to be very careful about what you ask for, because you will undoubtedly have to live with the results of your desires. Believe me, I know. Oscar Wilde said that there are two great tragedies in life: the first is not getting what you want. The second is getting exactly what you want. When I was younger I would have dismissed this idea and thought that Wilde was simply trying to sound clever, but in recent years Iíve had to deal with that second bit to such an overwhelming degree, that Iím afraid I know exactly what he means.

DR: About the Church of Satan, what do they do as an institution? Whatís their purpose? And what do you do on the Council of Nine?

Boyd: Well, when Anton LaVey was alive I would go on television shows as a spokesman for the organization, or Iíd go on radio talk shows, or I would go to Universities and lecture about it. Frankly, Iíve grown weary of discussing Satanism. Iíve come to despise all the intellectual creeds that masquerade as religions. All these pagans and Wiccans and Odinists are playing the same game of letís pretend. They tell you they follow the old gods and they proceed to explain what the gods symbolize, that theyíre archetypes of this or that. Thatís not religion.. Itís atheism with deities. Itís a modern intellectual conceit. And Iím sick to death of it all. These people talk about the solstices and how they celebrate them, but what does a solstice really mean to people living in a modern industrial society? It means absolutely nothing. When Winter comes you put another blanket on the bed and turn up the heat. Summer isnít harvest time. You need food and you go to the supermarket, whatever the time of year. Celebrating winter solstices and summer solstices could hardly be more bereft of meaning. While I still think that Satanism is valid as a philosophy and can be a functional world view for a great many people, 99 out of a hundred Satanists bore me to tears. LaVey was one of the best people Iíve ever met, and I love him dearly, and always will. I think that the creed of Satanism still has an important role to play in the world. But being a spokesman for the Church has become something of a distraction for me in recent years. I no longer have the patience to explain it, or argue it, or ever discuss it. Itís the sort of thing that you either get, or you donít. If you get it, no explanation is necessary. If you donít get it, you probably wouldnít understand the explanation anyway. Explaining things to people who are too lazy to go out and get a book about it and read the fucking book is simply not a good use of my time.

Iíve been discussing this in public forums for 13 years now. Enough is enough. The exoteric doctrines of Satanism donít bear further discussion, or at least not by me. And the esoteric doctrines of Satanism are for the inner circle only, so Iím not at liberty to discuss them publicly anyway. All this leads me to the feeling that itís time to move on. My studies of the Grail lore have lead to some amazing discoveries. I feel Iíve decoded some of its key mysteries and its fundamental secrets, and they have very little to do with orthodox Christian doctrine. I think that I have evidence of a string Luciferian element to the Grail, and if Iím correct, the ramifications are nothing short of flabbergasting. I need to do further research, but Iím already compiling notes for a book on the topic. Iíve discovered things that no one has ever even hinted at. And though itís far too early to discuss the details of my findings, if my hunches are right, I may well have discovered where Christ and the Magdalen are buried. But, like I said, I need to study this all in a bit more depth before I go around shooting my mouth off.

DR: You know that rune thing that you sign your name with? Iíve seen pictures of you wearing it on your clothes. What does it mean?

Boyd at Mussolini's Imperial Forum, Rome Boyd: It means kind of what I was discussing earlier. Itís the 13th rune, and it represents the balance between light and dark, creative force and destructive force, good and evil. And the interesting thing is that I started using this symbol before I even knew this. I had kind of a Jungian epiphany. I started using that before I knew it even existed as a symbol.

DR: What did you mean by it in the beginning?

Boyd: Thatís precisely what I meant by it! Because that was how I always thought, and how I always felt, and I thought, I need to come up with some kind of symbol that can symbolize all these things that Iím feeling, and I donít really know how to express them. And that looked like the symbol to me. About the same time I created another symbol, which I was going to use, which was a kind of Christian cross superimposed over an upside-down cross, and I was going to use that because that kind of meant the same thing to me. Before I could print it anywhere Genesis P-Orridge started the Temple of Psychic Youth, and his Psychic Cross looked so similar to that, I decided not to use it. I just thought that people would think I was stealing his image and modifying it or something. But what I have recently found out is that symbol is the same symbol created by Rene díAnjou, which is called the Cross of Lorraine, which is a symbol used by the French Resistance in WWII. And thereís an old poem about the Cross of Lorraine.

DR: By Charles Peguy? Boyd: Is that the one that says "the arms of Satan" and "the arms of Christ"? So again the symbol means exactly what it meant to me and it had existed for centuries. And that too was created by somebody that Iím related to. So itís like, what are the odds of that?

DR: Are you still doing the Arbaxas Foundation? What was that about? What were you guys trying to accomplish?

Boyd: We wanted to create a new paradigm. We wanted to synthesize certain very specific ideas, and create a schematic people could apply to life and living and the world. We knew that ideas, once released into the world, take on a life of their own. So what we were doing was like the philosophical or ideological equivalent of creating a virus, or letting a genie out of a bottle, or conjuring up demons. And we succeeded beyond our wildest dreams, because our ideas have taken on a life of their own, and essentially given birth to a whole new subculture. I canít go anywhere in the world without encountering people whoíve taken our ideas to heart. And they have all the cultural and philosophical points of reference, down to the tiniest detail. Twenty years ago no one entertained these ideas. Now its a phenomenon in the underground. And every underground phenomenon invariably seeps into the mainstream sooner or later. Itís inevitable

DR: What were all of the subjects that you were interested in?

Boyd: Well, I think the main one was Abraxas, which is this Hermetic Gnostic deity that combined good and evil in balance, which is basically what I was discussing before. Just a kind of monistic view recognizing dualism but recognizing that the extreme aspects of dualism are just different aspects of the same force. So it was basically certain occult ideas, or certain Social Darwinist ideas, things like that. Because we felt that there was a certain strong Darwinist element in the occult. I always felt that there was a strong Social Darwinist element in Satanism, but it was never overtly referred to, and I felt that it should be. As far as I know I donít think Anton LaVey ever used the term Social Darwinist prior to having met me, and now you read things in Satanic magazines, and theyíre constantly talking about Social Darwinism, which I think is a sensible aspect of Satanism. Of course, Social Darwinism to me is sort of a kindergarten topic. Iíve only discussed it ad nauseum for the last ten years because it took that long for people to cotton onto it. And frankly, if I never had to discuss it again, that would suit me just fine.

DR: So do you see this as a political movement, per se?

Boyd: No, Iím not at all interested in politics. Politics at one time was when somebody had a unique vision, had a gift for communicating that vision to people, and they could sway peopleís minds and gather all these people into one will to try to make that vision a reality. Today politics is just telling people what they want to hear. So itís like the person whoís the best politician is the bwho can tell people lies that flatter their conceits the best. But I think for kingdoms to change, men have to change. I think that eventually things are going to mutate and evolve to the point where these things are going to manifest.

DR: Are you envisioning some kind of totalitarian society, or an aristocracy?

Boyd: I donít really know what form it would take. What Iím envisioning right now is a massive stratification where the middle class disappears, and thereís one class of rulers, and one class of workers.

DR: And you like that idea.

Boyd: Yeah. Thatís perfectly fine with me. I mean thatís not my ideal, or anything. Itís just thatís what I expect to happen.

DR: You told me before that you would support the idea of monarchy, so could you kind of restate that and tell me why you think that itís a good idea?

Boyd: I think monarchy is a good idea because I think the notion of dualism kind of creates this divisiveness within society, where people are either right wing or left wing, conservative or liberal, and I think that in monarchy or even in totalitarianism, where youíre focusing on one thing, where you have one individual whoís gathering the people into a single will, you can move mountains. When you have any society thatís divided against itself, nothing is going to be accomplished.

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